[waldo]

Ben S, on 16 December 2010 - 11:56 AM, said:

Another thing I've noticed at least here in the UK is that the "Michael" album has had hardly any promotion. I live in London and work in the center of London and haven't seen 1 poster advertising the album. I've just seen a huge poster and promotion in a HMV store on Oxford Street.

Ben there's posters on the underground.. i've seen them in at least 5 stations now.
i like reading your thoughts.. you explain everything so well and to the point.

[m&ms]

And there's that: http://img838.images...928lowres1.jpg. Not sure if that is considered "promotion" though.

Friend of ours working at Sony said that corporate has gotten even greedier the last three to four years.

Everything's been dictated from the US. Plus they don't even care if they have a bad image (like he thinks deleting every little bit from youtube is stupid), they only want their own bonuses...

Apparently if a CD is produced for example the in-house Sony sub-contractor actually producing CDs has to compete with rival CD producers for the Sony job. Cause corporate America gives it to the cheapest. Even though they are currently contractors for all existing Music/Video Distributors Warner, EMI, Universal and Sony themselves.

Last but not least they made a huge profit in 2009/2010, but they cancelled the Christmas party cause they "can't afford it". The maxime under which they are operating seems to be minimum effort and maximum output. Would not put it past them that that is the exact reason why they created a controversy about the Michael album. So that they don't need to do more marketing, cause it keeps itself in the news....

Used and abused again...

[Ben S]

waldo, on 20 December 2010 - 06:40 AM, said:

Ben there's posters on the underground.. i've seen them in at least 5 stations now.
i like reading your thoughts.. you explain everything so well and to the point.

What tube stations have you seen the posters for the "Michael" album ?

I remember when Invincible was released, and there was a huge street poster behind the Center Point building near Charing Cross Rd. And I remember seeing a huge poster on the platform of Kentish Town for the Number Ones album. But nothing on the my travels for the Michael album.

When ever I walk past a poster or something of with an image of Michael I always do a Michael Jackson style point to it, or give a thumbs.

m&ms, on 20 December 2010 - 08:14 AM, said:

And there's that: http://img838.images...928lowres1.jpg. Not sure if that is considered "promotion" though.

Friend of ours working at Sony said that corporate has gotten even greedier the last three to four years.

Everything's been dictated from the US. Plus they don't even care if they have a bad image (like he thinks deleting every little bit from youtube is stupid), they only want their own bonuses...

Apparently if a CD is produced for example the in-house Sony sub-contractor actually producing CDs has to compete with rival CD producers for the Sony job. Cause corporate America gives it to the cheapest. Even though they are currently contractors for all existing Music/Video Distributors Warner, EMI, Universal and Sony themselves.

Last but not least they made a huge profit in 2009/2010, but they cancelled the Christmas party cause they "can't afford it". The maxime under which they are operating seems to be minimum effort and maximum output. Would not put it past them that that is the exact reason why they created a controversy about the Michael album. So that they don't need to do more marketing, cause it keeps itself in the news....

Used and abused again...

Interesting information that sounds truthful. I read or heard last week that a lot of Sony Music's income no comes from X Factor/ American idol judge Simon Cowell's music label Syco Music (as subsidiary of Sony). He creates a lot of hype and drama around his "acts" (they sure aren't artists) on his television shows. And that kind of links in with Simon Cowell who is now a big player in with Sony Music (at least he is in the UK). His label creates music cheaply, his acts often receive little radio airplay, but still reach the top 3 in the charts through appearances on television shows.

The money CBS/Epic(now Sony/Epic) invested in Michael for the Thriller album in 1983 most likely wouldn't happen now, and most likely never again, even if there was an artist who could shake up the world like Michael did with Thriller etc. Music videos are now irrelevant, there are no major music shows on television anymore, and at least in the UK music festivals are bigger events than an artist or a band touring, because there aren't any new other worldly stars who make music and perform on stage like no one else can. In some ways it's no surprise Sony possible don't invest in music artists and bands like they used to. Because music in my opinion no longer has an individual or cultural identity it once had. It's invisible, ie just genre based and mp3 downloads with a jpg and no real album artwork with liner notes. I guess Sony just want to make as much money from there acts, artists and bands within a 3yr period, drop them and sign new acts, artists and bands. I doubt music labels want artists like Michael, as Michael became too powerful not just as an artist but also in the business world of music. And we know Sony didn't like that.

Music today looks like it's gone back in time to like 1958-62, ie a time when Elvis went in to the army and Rock 'N' Roll lost it's edge, and Elvis cameback a little "middle of the road". And pre Beatles when loads of manufactured one hit wonders started to appear, and a time before pop stars wrote their own songs and were merely entertainers not artists who controlled everything.

This post has been edited by Ben S: 20 December 2010 - 08:46 PM

[waldo]

Oxford Circus. Baker Street. Bond Street. Tottenham Court Road.

[m&ms]

Ben S, on 20 December 2010 - 08:18 PM, said:

In some ways it's no surprise Sony possible don't invest in music artists and bands like they used to. Because music in my opinion no longer has an individual or cultural identity it once had. It's invisible, ie just genre based and mp3 downloads with a jpg and no real album artwork with liner notes. I guess Sony just want to make as much money from there acts, artists and bands within a 3yr period, drop them and sign new acts, artists and bands. I doubt music labels want artists like Michael, as Michael became too powerful not just as an artist but also in the business world of music. And we know Sony didn't like that.

I totally agree. Just look at the sheer number of casting shows!

Virtually no effort on the marketing side needed. After winning the X-Factor-Greatest-Talent-Idol they produce an album, usually a fast selling item for a while, then add a quick tour, after that, have them disappear for the new studio album (which in most cases is neither promoted nor still at the label they started out with) and onto the next winner... cheap TV, cheap music, and cheap "labour". Whip them through the machinery and use the next one. They are more and more a commodity rather than real singer/songwriter/artists. Terrible really.

So, I also think that labels don't really like artists with a substance. Especially not if they want to have a say about their music, and God Forbid, about their business. Granted there may be exceptions, but the big bucks are in the young casting winners. And that is a never ending story.

I doubt $ony will put much effort in marketing the "Michael" album other than riding the controversy wave and ca$hing in on the Christmas sales.

[Ben S]

m&ms, on 21 December 2010 - 07:57 AM, said:

I doubt $ony will put much effort in marketing the "Michael" album other than riding the controversy wave and ca$hing in on the Christmas sales.

I can't remember who said it (but it was from a well known person or company), but a week before "Michael" was released I read that controversy was always part of the promotion before the release of a new Michael Jackson album. I know that's not true, and I'm sure Michael hated any controversy before the release of his albums, like with Invincible with stories of Sony telling him he had to re-record songs on it etc. There was no controversy in the lead up to the Bad album being released. The media were talking about how different Michael looked from when he made Thriller, and were expecting the single "I Just Can't Stop Loving You" and the album Bad to flop. But it was actually very minimal compared to the controversy of the pre release of "Michael" and the fake song Breaking News, because this time Michael's family and fans were taking part in the controversy. I think this planned controversy by Sony has backfired on the "Michael" album, and Breaking News is such a bad song it should never have been the first song previewed on michaeljackson.com, and should never have made the album.

[m&ms]

Ben S, on 21 December 2010 - 02:18 PM, said:

Breaking News is such a bad song it should never have been the first song previewed on michaeljackson.com, and should never have made the album.

LOL Agree again. Why in all the worlds would they not preview Behind The Mask (as it is an "old" new song, or Hollywood Tonight? No they went for the weakest track on purpose... Morons.

[Nafra]

Who of you heart the whole version of "The place with no name" or "Slave To The Rhythm"

IMHO only these two songs are completely produced by Mj, but where to find them?

[visage]

MJSunshine, on 11 December 2010 - 10:39 AM, said:

visage, on 08 December 2010 - 06:35 PM, said:
When he made inquiries about some songs like "Breaking News" he was told the takes were deleted, the hard drive was destroyed & the computer was broken.

That's so ridiculous! I can't believe they are seriously claiming such things.

Thanks for your reply, We're referring to Taryll's observations of the meeting here: http://twitlonger.com/show/6s7j61

His observations are significant in a number of ways. First, I've seen a lot of comments online being dismissive of those critical of the album, of the family especially, which ignore the tangible information in Taryll's and Jackie's (http://twitter.com/J...040574249017344) statements. I've seen personal attacks on the family, involving speculations and misinformation. As you may know, they have spoken out on other issues in the past e.g. Randy & Taj about Oprah and Taj about MTV's treatment of MJ, recalling the facts of what happened. MTV Europe responded to Taj immediately. It seems some fans have been mislead to believe that attacking the family is necessary to support MJ's legacy and the album. They ignore the fact that Jackie and 3T have also expressed their strong support for the album, only objecting to certain tracks. These fans seem to have forgotten the unfortunate consequences of media bias and the mob mentality. I'm glad to see more thoughtful fans on this forum.

Secondly, it is considered mandatory for any creator of a published work to keep significant evidence of their work in progress. This is important evidence against any future claims of plagiarism, which can result in the loss of the rights to sell your work. So although Taryll does not mention this, his claim above that MJ, an experienced professional artist, would never ask that all the files be deleted seems quite solid. This could be a reason for co-executor McClain coming on side with Jackie, even if he may not be very knowledgeable about the artistic side of things.

Finally, Taryll's observations are tangible because they can be refuted by the Estate producing the missing takes e,g, by finding the backups (which they also claim are missing). To verify the authenticity and the degree to which it is MJ's work, it would have been standard for them to produce the hard drive, working computer & back ups for independent experts to analyze. Then there could be a comparison of the reports from the experts on both sides, as would be mandatory in any legal proceeding.

And as you may have heard, Taryll also disputes the Estate's account of the meeting: http://twitlonger.com/show/6uki8f

And you may have heard Quincy Jones has also echoed the family's objections, saying, "But no way it should be coming out..They must just be trying to make as much money as they can..He wouldn't have wanted anything out there he didn't put his final touches on."
http://www.usmagazin...-album-20101911

Which led to this derisive remark from T. Riley about Quincy Jones: "Look at his age. He can barely hear you talk."
http://www.guardian....ckson-new-album

Personally I think they could have released some of the demos (which they did on the TII album). I've found the demos online, like on youtube, to be quite enjoyable and to be of a high calibre. "Hot Street" is one of my favs and it was interesting to see how the song progressed through the different demos.

I hope that some fans will be willing share this info. You can support the album but also support the truth about those who are critical of it and fight media bias.

[Ben S]

visage, on 25 December 2010 - 08:30 AM, said:

Thanks for your reply, We're referring to Taryll's observations of the meeting here: http://twitlonger.com/show/6s7j61

His observations are significant in a number of ways. First, I've seen a lot of comments online being dismissive of those critical of the album, of the family especially, which ignore the tangible information in Taryll's and Jackie's (http://twitter.com/J...040574249017344) statements. I've seen personal attacks on the family, involving speculations and misinformation. As you may know, they have spoken out on other issues in the past e.g. Randy & Taj about Oprah and Taj about MTV's treatment of MJ, recalling the facts of what happened. MTV Europe responded to Taj immediately. It seems some fans have been mislead to believe that attacking the family is necessary to support MJ's legacy and the album. They ignore the fact that Jackie and 3T have also expressed their strong support for the album, only objecting to certain tracks. These fans seem to have forgotten the unfortunate consequences of media bias and the mob mentality. I'm glad to see more thoughtful fans on this forum.

Secondly, it is considered mandatory for any creator of a published work to keep significant evidence of their work in progress. This is important evidence against any future claims of plagiarism, which can result in the loss of the rights to sell your work. So although Taryll does not mention this, his claim above that MJ, an experienced professional artist, would never ask that all the files be deleted seems quite solid. This could be a reason for co-executor McClain coming on side with Jackie, even if he may not be very knowledgeable about the artistic side of things.

Finally, Taryll's observations are tangible because they can be refuted by the Estate producing the missing takes e,g, by finding the backups (which they also claim are missing). To verify the authenticity and the degree to which it is MJ's work, it would have been standard for them to produce the hard drive, working computer & back ups for independent experts to analyze. Then there could be a comparison of the reports from the experts on both sides, as would be mandatory in any legal proceeding.

And as you may have heard, Taryll also disputes the Estate's account of the meeting: http://twitlonger.com/show/6uki8f

And you may have heard Quincy Jones has also echoed the family's objections, saying, "But no way it should be coming out..They must just be trying to make as much money as they can..He wouldn't have wanted anything out there he didn't put his final touches on."
http://www.usmagazin...-album-20101911

Which led to this derisive remark from T. Riley about Quincy Jones: "Look at his age. He can barely hear you talk."
http://www.guardian....ckson-new-album

Personally I think they could have released some of the demos (which they did on the TII album). I've found the demos online, like on youtube, to be quite enjoyable and to be of a high calibre. "Hot Street" is one of my favs and it was interesting to see how the song progressed through the different demos.

I hope that some fans will be willing share this info. You can support the album but also support the truth about those who are critical of it and fight media bias.

Well said. I agree with practically everything Taj, Taryll and TJ have said in the criticism of the "Michael" album. One MJ fan site has criticized Taj on Twitter accusing him of turning fans against Michael's legacy for being his being critical of Michael's estate and Sony.

I think Taj speaks a lot of sense and Michael's estate should take notice of the criticism Michael's nephews are making, because they don't strike me as people who want publicity or to have Michael's estate controlled by the Jackson family. I personally like the fact John Branca and John McClain (though mainly Branca) are the executors of Michael's estate. But they should have done a better job with this Michael album than they have done. I know they are a lawyer and music executive, and John McClain isn't a music producer (who should never have touched Behind The Mask). But as both of them knew Michael for 30yrs (McClain over 30yrs), they will know what Michael does and doesn't like. And how high the quality of Michael's releases should be.

I'm not too sure if Michael's estate are just being passive with Sony, ie giving Sony the unreleased songs and demos they ask for without question. And then letting Sony make all choices for producers, sound engineer's etc, and song selections on albums like "Michael". Making this a business relationship were Michael's estate just look after Michael's vault and Sony look after the creative side of Michael's legacy with no questions asked from John Branca etc.
Jackie only made one message on Twitter that was critical of Sony, saying him and John McClain tried to get Sony to remove some songs from the "Michael" album, but couldn't. If John McClain who is an co-executor of Michael's estate can't get songs like Breaking News removed from the "Michael" album, then I think there is a big problem. Even music critics in papers I've read that are often critical of Michael, say the "Michael" album has been badly put together showing no respect for Michael's legacy.

I believe Michael's nephews are getting fans involved, because they want fans to but pressure on Michael's estate and Sony to do a better job with Michael's legacy. Like I said, Michael's estate and Sony started of brilliantly with the "Michael Jackson's This Is It" project, but have really gone downhill with the "Michael" project. And they should know most fans only want to hear unreleased songs as Michael left them, not unreleased songs with other producers finishing them off and using a bad Michael Jackson sound a like, or a computer to badly mimic Michael's vocals. Who the hell does Teddy Riley think he is using a computer (what he calls processing)to mimic Michael's vocals, and trying to fool fans.

Most fans like me, have supported the Michael album by buying it. But Michael's estate and Sony's promotion of it and putting the fake song Breaking News on it, and it being the first song they streamed online has caused unneeded controversy. Much Too Soon and Behind The Mask are the songs that should have been used to mainly promote the "Michael" album. The songs song used to promote the album aleinated the average music buyer from buying the album, especially hearing a song is fake (when any song that obviously raises doubt for Sony to bring in forensics shouldn't be put an album).

From what I've heard via MJJC about the sales of "Michael" (and it only reaching No.4 UK and No.3 in the USA etc) it is the No.1 selling album globally. So that's great news, even though I don't fully support the album from "quality" point of view.

This post has been edited by Ben S: 25 December 2010 - 12:34 PM

[jimarez]

thanks!! is amaizing!

[Labonee]

Hi, jimarez. Its Labonee. Can I have this video? I like it so much.And one more thing this is very true that HE IS A LEGEND AND NEVER DIES. HE WAS THE ONE, HE IS THE ONE AND WILL BE.

[visage]

I hope people read for themselves what the family has said from their websites, that's why I linked. Jackie Jackson's exact quote: http://twitter.com/J...040574249017344
"My friend John McClain (co-executor) and I have insisted for many weeks to have certain tracks removed from Michael's new album."
This is a tangible information that counters some of the misinformation about the family and it has not been refuted by any party since it was posted two months ago. Yet I'm not aware this was mentioned at all much in the mainstream media. The family is being misrepresented as those who challenge corporate power always face the same. And from the comments on youtube and other places, many fans are buying it. Yes I saw Taj's re-tweets of the nasty comments from 'fans.'

Another important aspect of this is the direction of pop music itself. It's almost like it doesn't really matter who the singer is, it's so overproduced. If they were to honor his legacy, there are a lot of unreleased material that is 100% his original creation, as mentioned. A lot of J5 gems as well, as discussed in forum on the U Columbia symposium. And what about dvd's of his tours before Dangerous? The new products like the album, the game, etc. can seem rather gimmicky even if they are fun. The drive for quick profits can be a distraction from honoring his legacy, his cultural significance.

With true legends, the focus has to stop being on the number of albums sold/size of the profits if we are to honor their legacy. When MJ would consistently refer to Tchaikovsky's Nutcracker 'album' as the inspiration for Thriller in numerous interviews (because it was one hit after another), he wasn't referring to the number of albums it was selling. In other genres, incomplete works are shown as is or if completed, it is just a matter of adding a few more passages. With this new album, we're talking about almost an entire new creation with little input from the artist.

Yoko Ono also faces much controversy but she has always been a strong advocate for John Lennon. The Jackson family is facing more challenges,
www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTML-i833wo

The legacy of the Beatles & Elvis was honored and more respected, under the direct involvement of family. When the Cirque show for the Beatles was put together, it was with complete respect and involvement of the ex-Beatles, their widows & the original Beatles producer and using the original masters. (I'll link to the documentary in the Cirque du Soleil forum). The Beatles music was referred to as a "Holy Grail", no way was it going to end up in overproduced remixes, just for the sake of the current trends. And probably the same for Priscilla Presley when they put together the Elvis show. It seems strong personal relationships are better protectors of legacy than business relationships, which focus on profits and as such have ample opportunities for betrayal. MJ spoke much about artist exploitation, including his own, by the music industry in his lifetime. Even in death, it continues.

This post has been edited by visage: 28 December 2010 - 08:37 PM

[Ben S]

visage, on 28 December 2010 - 07:29 PM, said:

I hope people read for themselves what the family has said from their websites, that's why I linked. Jackie Jackson's exact quote: http://twitter.com/J...040574249017344
"My friend John McClain (co-executor) and I have insisted for many weeks to have certain tracks removed from Michael's new album."
This is a tangible information that counters some of the misinformation about the family and it has not been refuted by any party since it was posted two months ago. Yet I'm not aware this was mentioned at all much in the mainstream media. The family is being misrepresented as those who challenge corporate power always face the same. And from the comments on youtube and other places, many fans are buying it. Yes I saw Taj's re-tweets of the nasty comments from 'fans.'

Another important aspect of this is the direction of pop music itself. It's almost like it doesn't really matter who the singer is, it's so overproduced. If they were to honor his legacy, there are a lot of unreleased material that is 100% his original creation, as mentioned. A lot of J5 gems as well, as discussed in forum on the U Columbia symposium. And what about dvd's of his tours before Dangerous? The new products like the album, the game, etc. can seem rather gimmicky even if they are fun. The drive for quick profits can be a distraction from honoring his legacy, his cultural significance.

With true legends, the focus has to stop being on the number of albums sold/size of the profits if we are to honor their legacy. When MJ would consistently refer to Tchaikovsky's Nutcracker 'album' as the inspiration for Thriller in numerous interviews (because it was one hit after another), he wasn't referring to the number of albums it was selling. In other genres, incomplete works are shown as is or if completed, it is just a matter of adding a few more passages. With this new album, we're talking about almost an entire new creation with little input from the artist.

Yoko Ono also faces much controversy but she has always been a strong advocate for John Lennon. The Jackson family is facing more challenges,
www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTML-i833wo

The legacy of the Beatles & Elvis was honored and more respected, under the direct involvement of family. When the Cirque show for the Beatles was put together, it was with complete respect and involvement of the ex-Beatles, their widows & the original Beatles producer and using the original masters. (I'll link to the documentary in the Cirque du Soleil forum). The Beatles music was referred to as a "Holy Grail", no way was it going to end up in overproduced remixes, just for the sake of the current trends. And probably the same for Priscilla Presley when they put together the Elvis show. It seems strong personal relationships are better protectors of legacy than business relationships, which focus on profits and as such have ample opportunities for betrayal. MJ spoke much about artist exploitation, including his own, by the music industry in his lifetime. Even in death, it continues.

A great post. I agree with everything you said, because it's spot on !

I haven't bought the Michael Jackson computer game yet. But it does seem very gimmicky, and from what I've seen the graphics of the game look very tacky.

Your right to point out the legacy of The Beatles and Elvis is far more respected than Michael's. But I have to say, that the legacy of The Beatles and Elvis took sometime to actually operate. The Beatles weren't hot news after their split in 1970. Apart from the success of the Red and Blue greatest hits album in 1973, The Beatles were virtually ignored for all of the 1970's and 80's. It wasn't really until 1995 for The Beatles legacy actually got it's act together with "The Beatles: Anthology" project. Which was a 6 part television series (which made The Beatles cool again) and three Anthology albums of demos, and unreleased live recordings etc. There was infighting between The Beatles post 1970. John Lennon, George Harrison and Ringo Starr were at war against Paul McCartney who took them to court to end their business together (though they still maintained there business Apple Corps, which exists to this day) as the group The Beatles. After John Lennon died, Paul McCartney had business issues with Yoko Ono for some years, so Apple Corps since 1970 had been in disarray with no clear business plain.

Elvis legacy was taken care of by Priscilla Presley. Elvis estate wasn't a wealthy one like Michael is, but like Michael, Elvis's reputation image wise wasn't in a great place at the time of his death(though, Michael was in the cusp of getting back he reputation with the 50 sold out concerts at the O2 Arena), but Priscilla Presley was savvy enough not to bombard the public with Elvis releases. Jimi Hendrix's estate also took many years to function properly, and it wasn't until around 1990 20yrs after his death that the public actually started to get brilliant releases of albums and documentaries of Jimi Hendrix. John Lennon's estate has been the only one to have functioned well right from the start, but even Yoko Ono waited around 3yrs before anything was released to the public by John Lennon again, expect the re-release of the single Imagine not long after his death.

The problem with Michael's estate is that they are trying to do too much too soon. The movie "Michael Jackson's This Is It", the accompanying album, O2 Arena exhibition, and Blu-ray/ DVD release of the movie was a brilliant business move and a good one for Michael's reputation. The recording breaking deal with Sony of 7 albums etc, I think in hindsight has been made too soon. I like all fans want to hear as much unreleased Michael Jackson songs as possible, and see tours like the Bad Tour 1988 on Blu-ray/DVD. But it's kind of obvious John Branca and John McClain aren't really thinking Michael's projects through throughly enough. I know us fans are moaning and concerned after just the 2nd project, the "Michael" album. But it doesn't take long to figure out that album has been put together very badly, and rush released. Michael not only took time recording his albums to perfection, but also meticulous planned how he would promote his album etc. Michael's estate don't have Michael to put his albums together, but they still have the vault of music Michael recorded. And one thing they should do to honor Michael's legacy is to to have producers tamper with Michael's recordings. That's the worst thing about the "Michael" album, is the tampering of his finished and unfinished songs by all the co-producers of the album.

Another thing fans know Michael didn't want any business association with his family. The Jackson family apart from Michael (I don't know about Janet) are not great business people, so that's one of the main reasons I think he cut them (apart from his mother Katherine, because he wanted her taken care of financially) from his will. Michael obviously thought John Branca and John McClain were the best people to look after his legacy. I know John McClain is a top music executive, and has known Michael since 1976. And I know he worked with Michael over the last few years, but I don't know exactly what he did for Michael. John Branca, I know helped make Michael the No.1 icon in modern music with some very astute advice, and was practically Michael's manager in 1983 during the first half the Thriller era. So I would say, I still think John Branca is a the best choice to be in charge of Michael's estate. But even though Michael didn't name any of his siblings in his will etc, I do think someone like Jackie should be co-executor with John Branca and John McClain until at least the oldest of Michael's children ie Prince is old enough to start having a say in Michael's estate. After all Michael's estate does belong to Prince, Paris and Blanket in the long run, not the executors and certainly not Sony.

Michael's estate shouldn't just take more care looking after Michael's creative legacy, but should be more proactive in Michael's reputation as a person. Such as issuing a statement about the Discovery Channel's up and coming documentary on his autopsy.

[visage]

Priscilla and then LMP are chair of Elvis's estate but it is run by professional managers they trust and have a good relationship with. The statements by Jackie Jackson and Taryll that I mentioned, support the view that the Estate is not operating in his best interest. It would help if MJ's estate is managed by people that give the family more input instead of treating them like outsiders. As mentioned Randy and Taj have made considerable efforts advocating and reporting the facts on a numerous issues (e.g. Oprah, MTV, now the autopsy documentary) and had their own reputations attacked as a result. But many fans appreciate and support them. It has also been far from easy for TJ and Taryll to speak out about the album. You can see all the attacks on them online.

You can see from his twitter and his blog, Taj Jackson has done a lot to advocate and communicate with fans on various issues e.g. uncovering the Gardner school sign (with the help of Katherine), #MessageToMJ on MJ's birthday, #HoldMyHand, etc. And the advocacy about the controversial ITV interview, which Charles Thomson has acknowleged:
http://twitter.com/t...951215394160640
"CEThomson We now have Taj Jackson threatening legal action and an US ambassador supporting the campaign. Let the media know!"

C. Thomsom was in touch with Taj about ITV, as Taj tweeted various posts about it on Nov. 11.
http://twitter.com/t...849801020379136
"@CEThomson Taj please RT! Address to complain to ITV over MacKenzie comments: viewerservices@itv.com Info here: http://tinyurl.com/238kbw9"

There may have been already a letter from the Estate protesting the autopsy documentary if was the family was allowed more input. Taj Jackson has tweeted in protest of the documentary and points out how the facebook page is run by Sony and could be used to help the petition against it.
http://twitter.com/t...766443696459777
http://twitter.com/t...764109989904384
http://twitter.com/t...762763526045696
http://twitter.com/t...451731637608448

Contrary to what is perpetrated in the media, many fans appreciate and support the family for their advocacy.

Fans have different opinions about different family members but I ask that people avoid making blanket statements about the family. I don't pretend to speak for Michael. I ask that they look for the facts and find out exactly what the family and MJ have said instead of believing the distortions that are perpetrated against the family in the media and by some 'fans'. I feel this negative fixation and the numerous attempts to undermine his family is part of the media fixation on his personal life that continues to hurt his legacy. Elvis and The Beatles had their problems too, including their relationships. Priscilla Presley has described her very troubled relationship with Elvis in graphic detail but this is not the place to discuss that. But in the end, their families were there to be strong advocates for them, despite their personal problems.

I would like this to be my final comment about the this i.e. I think more detailed discussion of opinions about the family, MJ's history with John Branca & other people in the Estate, ITV, the Discovery documentary, etc. belong in other thread(s).

Some relevant links to regarding my previous post:

Michael the Meal
" CNN, the nation's premier cable news network, saw an increase of over 900% -- 900% -- in viewer ship since Michael's passing."
http://www.prisonrad...el_the_meal.htm

Chuck D & Funk Expert Rickey Vincent Speak on the Music & Political Legacy of Michael Jackson & the Jackson 5
(Unfortunately missing the audio files, see tribute show above)
http://hiphopandpoli...-the-jackson-5/

How Michael Got Gangsta With Sony Music Over Black Music & Racism
http://hiphopandpoli...er-black-music/
Michael was a visionary on this issue as well. Musicians today are now working with alternative models of music production:
Corporations are People: This is How that Effects Hip Hop & Enslaves You
http://hiphopandpoli...p-enslaves-you/

Michael Jackson’s Memorial:End of an Era-Close of a Chapter-Where Do We Go from Here?
http://hiphopandpoli...e-of-a-chapter/
Regarding the comments on Brooke Shields, in 1982 "'The Girl Is Mine' was credited for getting interracial love on the radio" years after MJ was dating Tatum O'Neal & Shields.
http://en.wikipedia....Thriller_(album)#Music_videos_and_racial_equality

This post has been edited by visage: 29 December 2010 - 09:24 AM

[MJSunshine]

visage, on 25 December 2010 - 08:30 AM, said:

MJSunshine, on 11 December 2010 - 10:39 AM, said:

visage, on 08 December 2010 - 06:35 PM, said:
When he made inquiries about some songs like "Breaking News" he was told the takes were deleted, the hard drive was destroyed & the computer was broken.

That's so ridiculous! I can't believe they are seriously claiming such things.

Thanks for your reply, We're referring to Taryll's observations of the meeting here: http://twitlonger.com/show/6s7j61

His observations are significant in a number of ways. First, I've seen a lot of comments online being dismissive of those critical of the album, of the family especially, which ignore the tangible information in Taryll's and Jackie's (http://twitter.com/J...040574249017344) statements. I've seen personal attacks on the family, involving speculations and misinformation. As you may know, they have spoken out on other issues in the past e.g. Randy & Taj about Oprah and Taj about MTV's treatment of MJ, recalling the facts of what happened. MTV Europe responded to Taj immediately. It seems some fans have been mislead to believe that attacking the family is necessary to support MJ's legacy and the album. They ignore the fact that Jackie and 3T have also expressed their strong support for the album, only objecting to certain tracks. These fans seem to have forgotten the unfortunate consequences of media bias and the mob mentality. I'm glad to see more thoughtful fans on this forum.

Secondly, it is considered mandatory for any creator of a published work to keep significant evidence of their work in progress. This is important evidence against any future claims of plagiarism, which can result in the loss of the rights to sell your work. So although Taryll does not mention this, his claim above that MJ, an experienced professional artist, would never ask that all the files be deleted seems quite solid. This could be a reason for co-executor McClain coming on side with Jackie, even if he may not be very knowledgeable about the artistic side of things.

Finally, Taryll's observations are tangible because they can be refuted by the Estate producing the missing takes e,g, by finding the backups (which they also claim are missing). To verify the authenticity and the degree to which it is MJ's work, it would have been standard for them to produce the hard drive, working computer & back ups for independent experts to analyze. Then there could be a comparison of the reports from the experts on both sides, as would be mandatory in any legal proceeding.

And as you may have heard, Taryll also disputes the Estate's account of the meeting: http://twitlonger.com/show/6uki8f

And you may have heard Quincy Jones has also echoed the family's objections, saying, "But no way it should be coming out..They must just be trying to make as much money as they can..He wouldn't have wanted anything out there he didn't put his final touches on."
http://www.usmagazin...-album-20101911

Which led to this derisive remark from T. Riley about Quincy Jones: "Look at his age. He can barely hear you talk."
http://www.guardian....ckson-new-album

Personally I think they could have released some of the demos (which they did on the TII album). I've found the demos online, like on youtube, to be quite enjoyable and to be of a high calibre. "Hot Street" is one of my favs and it was interesting to see how the song progressed through the different demos.

I hope that some fans will be willing share this info. You can support the album but also support the truth about those who are critical of it and fight media bias.

I'm not sure, I hope you didn't get me wrong. I wanted to say it's ridiculous that Sony, the Cascios and the people involved in the making of the album claim that all takes were deleted, the computer broken and stuff like that.

I'm so disappointed about the reaction of many many fans who are turning against Michael's nephews and siblings. Fans shouldn't forget that it has always been important to form an own opinion about what other people say about Michael. Some fans aren't open for arguments and are just taking part in the game one person against the other - Sony against the family etc. Personally, I feel that 3T are some of the family members that were closest to Michael and his art. I wonder how the fans would react if Michael's children would have made the statements of Taj and Taryll - would they react the same way? I don't think so.

Thanks to Ben and visage for your posts, it was very interesting to read.

[Ben S]

If you follow us Twitter on a regular basis. You will notice one fan MJ site is quite vocal in claiming that the Jackson family especially Taj are trying to turn Michael's fan base against Michael's estate and legacy. And that this fan site claim they are doing all they can to support Michael. But aren't at all critical about the fake song Breaking News which I think they claim is Michael. I totally agree with what Randy, Taj and Taryll have said.